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	<title>Comments for The Short Version</title>
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	<description>Love, Life, Meaning, Zen, and Science, by Norm Bearrentine</description>
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		<title>Comment on Antonio Damasio, Self Comes to Mind, Review by normbear</title>
		<link>http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/2011/02/18/antonio-damasio-self-comes-to-mind-review/comment-page-1/#comment-2891</link>
		<dc:creator>normbear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 04:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/?p=647#comment-2891</guid>
		<description>Ian, in your first paragraph, you characterize my reference to a direct quote from Damasio&#039;s book as &quot;deliberately misread,&quot; and in return, you put an alarm clock in his mouth to correct my &quot;misreading.&quot; Alarm clocks are a fairly recent invention, and even now there are millions of people who don&#039;t have them. How do people &quot;allow&quot; their consciousness to return if they don&#039;t have an alarm clock to set the night before?

You seem to have made a serious effort to get Damasio to say things he doesn&#039;t say, and to alter the things he does say so that they mean what you want them to. Unfortunately, I don&#039;t find the results convincing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ian, in your first paragraph, you characterize my reference to a direct quote from Damasio&#8217;s book as &#8220;deliberately misread,&#8221; and in return, you put an alarm clock in his mouth to correct my &#8220;misreading.&#8221; Alarm clocks are a fairly recent invention, and even now there are millions of people who don&#8217;t have them. How do people &#8220;allow&#8221; their consciousness to return if they don&#8217;t have an alarm clock to set the night before?</p>
<p>You seem to have made a serious effort to get Damasio to say things he doesn&#8217;t say, and to alter the things he does say so that they mean what you want them to. Unfortunately, I don&#8217;t find the results convincing.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Antonio Damasio, Self Comes to Mind, Review by Ian Ross</title>
		<link>http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/2011/02/18/antonio-damasio-self-comes-to-mind-review/comment-page-1/#comment-2889</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 02:11:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/?p=647#comment-2889</guid>
		<description>&quot;You have to be conscious to “allow” anything, which means consciousness has to return before you can allow it to return. What?&quot; - This seems to be deliberately misread.  You know consciousness returns after sleep - as a biological fact.  When you set the alarm clock, you therefore make a choice to &quot;allow&quot; consciousness to return.

&quot;The brain creates the self and then the self arranges or negotiates our experience of the mind?&quot;  This has to do with how he defines the words &quot;self&quot; (the organiser of mentality, in the brain stem) and &quot;consciousness&quot; (the contents of the mind, largely in the neocortex).  You aren&#039;t using the words the way he does.  If you do, the paradox goes away.  

&quot;Disregarding such insights, Damasio wants to find a job for the conscious self&quot; - no, that&#039;s a fundamental mistake.  He is talking about the existence of the self, but is not trying to find a &quot;job&quot; for it (in the sense that it has been uniquely selected by evolution).  The self is what it is.  The point is, it exists.  To think of it as a separate entity from the consciousness, like a plug &amp; play module, is a mistake.  It is an outcome of the way the brain evolved, but it is a real, extant outcome.  The point is, the path of evolution the brain followed built in the &quot;self&quot; right from the beginning, as an aspect of brain architecture, not a functional module.  When you talk about the &quot;space inside a building&quot; you don&#039;t talk about the &quot;job&quot; of the space, or ask what would happen if you &quot;removed it&quot;.  You don&#039;t think about the space inside a building in that way.  But it doesn&#039;t mean the space isn&#039;t real, or that it doesn&#039;t influence the way the building is used.  Damasio&#039;s talk about the things the self does is metaphorical and descriptive, not intending to identify points of natural selection for the &quot;self&quot; as a module.  In fact, this is a better way to think about it than Churchlands, which is still rooted in the idea of the self as a unique module, albeit a &quot;utility&quot;.

Similarly, the arguments about decisions being made before the contents enter consciousness is a misunderstanding of consciousness and decision making.  Decisions are made by &quot;the brain&quot; which includes all the subconscious processes.  If you pull your hand away from a hot stove, you would say &quot;I took my hand away&quot; even though you know this is a spinal reflex which doesn&#039;t get anywhere near the CNS.  It&#039;s still &quot;you&quot; though.  Your consciousness is a high level function so there is a time delay before decisions enter consciousness.  In that sense &quot;consciousness&quot; doesn&#039;t decide ANYTHING.  But your consciousness isn&#039;t a sort of dissect-able bit of your brain that you could just cut out, to see if everything goes on as normal.  ALL of your brain is &quot;You&quot;, not just this particular function.  And if ALL of your brain makes decisions, well, no surprise!  So Damasio&#039;s &quot;conscious deliberation&quot; refers to a process involving the consciousness, over time, but one which involves all of the brain as well.  The fact that the subconscious (ie &quot;those functions not directly accessible to the consciousness&quot;) is centrally involved in decisions is NOT an argument for or against free will unless you a priori exclude all of the brain from decision making EXCEPT for that aspect of brain function that we call &quot;consciousness&quot;.  I think the biggest problem with free will is that it&#039;s poorly defined!  We still debate it as a sort of medieval idea, when in fact it needs to be redefined in modern terms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You have to be conscious to “allow” anything, which means consciousness has to return before you can allow it to return. What?&#8221; &#8211; This seems to be deliberately misread.  You know consciousness returns after sleep &#8211; as a biological fact.  When you set the alarm clock, you therefore make a choice to &#8220;allow&#8221; consciousness to return.</p>
<p>&#8220;The brain creates the self and then the self arranges or negotiates our experience of the mind?&#8221;  This has to do with how he defines the words &#8220;self&#8221; (the organiser of mentality, in the brain stem) and &#8220;consciousness&#8221; (the contents of the mind, largely in the neocortex).  You aren&#8217;t using the words the way he does.  If you do, the paradox goes away.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Disregarding such insights, Damasio wants to find a job for the conscious self&#8221; &#8211; no, that&#8217;s a fundamental mistake.  He is talking about the existence of the self, but is not trying to find a &#8220;job&#8221; for it (in the sense that it has been uniquely selected by evolution).  The self is what it is.  The point is, it exists.  To think of it as a separate entity from the consciousness, like a plug &amp; play module, is a mistake.  It is an outcome of the way the brain evolved, but it is a real, extant outcome.  The point is, the path of evolution the brain followed built in the &#8220;self&#8221; right from the beginning, as an aspect of brain architecture, not a functional module.  When you talk about the &#8220;space inside a building&#8221; you don&#8217;t talk about the &#8220;job&#8221; of the space, or ask what would happen if you &#8220;removed it&#8221;.  You don&#8217;t think about the space inside a building in that way.  But it doesn&#8217;t mean the space isn&#8217;t real, or that it doesn&#8217;t influence the way the building is used.  Damasio&#8217;s talk about the things the self does is metaphorical and descriptive, not intending to identify points of natural selection for the &#8220;self&#8221; as a module.  In fact, this is a better way to think about it than Churchlands, which is still rooted in the idea of the self as a unique module, albeit a &#8220;utility&#8221;.</p>
<p>Similarly, the arguments about decisions being made before the contents enter consciousness is a misunderstanding of consciousness and decision making.  Decisions are made by &#8220;the brain&#8221; which includes all the subconscious processes.  If you pull your hand away from a hot stove, you would say &#8220;I took my hand away&#8221; even though you know this is a spinal reflex which doesn&#8217;t get anywhere near the CNS.  It&#8217;s still &#8220;you&#8221; though.  Your consciousness is a high level function so there is a time delay before decisions enter consciousness.  In that sense &#8220;consciousness&#8221; doesn&#8217;t decide ANYTHING.  But your consciousness isn&#8217;t a sort of dissect-able bit of your brain that you could just cut out, to see if everything goes on as normal.  ALL of your brain is &#8220;You&#8221;, not just this particular function.  And if ALL of your brain makes decisions, well, no surprise!  So Damasio&#8217;s &#8220;conscious deliberation&#8221; refers to a process involving the consciousness, over time, but one which involves all of the brain as well.  The fact that the subconscious (ie &#8220;those functions not directly accessible to the consciousness&#8221;) is centrally involved in decisions is NOT an argument for or against free will unless you a priori exclude all of the brain from decision making EXCEPT for that aspect of brain function that we call &#8220;consciousness&#8221;.  I think the biggest problem with free will is that it&#8217;s poorly defined!  We still debate it as a sort of medieval idea, when in fact it needs to be redefined in modern terms.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How I Got Here: Evolution of a Naturalist by normbear</title>
		<link>http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/2008/07/29/how-i-got-here/comment-page-1/#comment-2672</link>
		<dc:creator>normbear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2011 17:34:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/?p=249#comment-2672</guid>
		<description>The brain makes the decision, but it is much more than &quot;me.&quot; My sense of who I am consists of my conscious experience, and when a decision emerges from non-conscious neural processes, it becomes incorporated into &quot;me,&quot; even though I have no conscious awareness of the decision-making process. The same brain that makes the decision constructs a narrative of who I am based on the decisions that emerge into consciousness, but no part of the brain really knows how the decision was made. The narrative is constructed by the brain to explain the organism&#039;s behavior, since as social creatures, we need to explain our behavior in a way that makes us predictable to our fellow human beings. These explanations are based on the brain&#039;s understanding of what the social system expects or requires so they are culturally based. An explanation that would make sense in mid-town America would probably be incomprehensible in the backwaters of the Amazon, because those cultures explain behavior differently, and neither of them uses a neuroscience-based understanding of how decisions are made. Here&#039;s one of my posts that talks more about the neuroscience of our selves, and there are many more: http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/2009/03/27/the-mission-happiness-for-everyone/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The brain makes the decision, but it is much more than &#8220;me.&#8221; My sense of who I am consists of my conscious experience, and when a decision emerges from non-conscious neural processes, it becomes incorporated into &#8220;me,&#8221; even though I have no conscious awareness of the decision-making process. The same brain that makes the decision constructs a narrative of who I am based on the decisions that emerge into consciousness, but no part of the brain really knows how the decision was made. The narrative is constructed by the brain to explain the organism&#8217;s behavior, since as social creatures, we need to explain our behavior in a way that makes us predictable to our fellow human beings. These explanations are based on the brain&#8217;s understanding of what the social system expects or requires so they are culturally based. An explanation that would make sense in mid-town America would probably be incomprehensible in the backwaters of the Amazon, because those cultures explain behavior differently, and neither of them uses a neuroscience-based understanding of how decisions are made. Here&#8217;s one of my posts that talks more about the neuroscience of our selves, and there are many more: <a href="http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/2009/03/27/the-mission-happiness-for-everyone/" rel="nofollow">http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/2009/03/27/the-mission-happiness-for-everyone/</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on How I Got Here: Evolution of a Naturalist by Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/2008/07/29/how-i-got-here/comment-page-1/#comment-2666</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jul 2011 07:58:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/?p=249#comment-2666</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;re not the one in charge, what happens when it&#039;s time to make a decision?  Who makes the decision?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;re not the one in charge, what happens when it&#8217;s time to make a decision?  Who makes the decision?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Let&#8217;s Get Real; Clinging to &#8220;Impermanence&#8221; by The Search for Ultimate Truth and Certainty &#124; The Short Version</title>
		<link>http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/2008/03/04/lets-get-real/comment-page-1/#comment-974</link>
		<dc:creator>The Search for Ultimate Truth and Certainty &#124; The Short Version</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 04:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/?p=15#comment-974</guid>
		<description>[...] Buddhists seem unique in offering freedom from fear in our ordinary lives. Although some segments of Buddhism have hedged their bets with the prospect of nirvana, enlightenment, awakening, etc., in some future life, sometimes even in another place—the “Pure Land”—the dominant emphasis has been on freedom from anguish right here, at any moment. The means of achieving this freedom have varied over the centuries, and in elaborating on these means, Buddhists have often created the kinds of absolute truths common to more deist religions. Useful ideas have become dogma. One of the more prominent of these is the idea of impermanence, which I’ve written about before. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Buddhists seem unique in offering freedom from fear in our ordinary lives. Although some segments of Buddhism have hedged their bets with the prospect of nirvana, enlightenment, awakening, etc., in some future life, sometimes even in another place—the “Pure Land”—the dominant emphasis has been on freedom from anguish right here, at any moment. The means of achieving this freedom have varied over the centuries, and in elaborating on these means, Buddhists have often created the kinds of absolute truths common to more deist religions. Useful ideas have become dogma. One of the more prominent of these is the idea of impermanence, which I’ve written about before. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Uncertainty of Life and Love by The Search for Ultimate Truth and Certainty &#124; The Short Version</title>
		<link>http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/2009/02/17/the-uncertainty-of-life-and-love/comment-page-1/#comment-973</link>
		<dc:creator>The Search for Ultimate Truth and Certainty &#124; The Short Version</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 03:59:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/?p=284#comment-973</guid>
		<description>[...] be scary, especially if you imagine a future in which terrible things happen. As I’ve mentioned before, imagination is both a curse and a gift, and the same is true of memory: we remember bad things, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] be scary, especially if you imagine a future in which terrible things happen. As I’ve mentioned before, imagination is both a curse and a gift, and the same is true of memory: we remember bad things, [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Meditation, Smiling, Mood Control, and Relationships by Meditation Books</title>
		<link>http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/2008/10/26/meditation-smiling-mood-control-and-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-627</link>
		<dc:creator>Meditation Books</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 19:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/?p=275#comment-627</guid>
		<description>Very interesting and very good point.... all the best and keep writing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting and very good point&#8230;. all the best and keep writing.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Guessing Game: Our Unavoidable Ignorance by Needless Suffering and the Illusion of Responsibility &#124; The Short Version</title>
		<link>http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/2008/08/07/the-guessing-game/comment-page-1/#comment-436</link>
		<dc:creator>Needless Suffering and the Illusion of Responsibility &#124; The Short Version</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 04:08:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/?p=255#comment-436</guid>
		<description>[...] an earlier post: “I would like to keep the level of my ignorance clearly in mind. I would like to remember that [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] an earlier post: “I would like to keep the level of my ignorance clearly in mind. I would like to remember that [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Mission: Happiness for Everyone by Needless Suffering and the Illusion of Responsibility &#124; The Short Version</title>
		<link>http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/2009/03/27/the-mission-happiness-for-everyone/comment-page-1/#comment-435</link>
		<dc:creator>Needless Suffering and the Illusion of Responsibility &#124; The Short Version</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 04:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/?p=289#comment-435</guid>
		<description>[...] and my verbalizations are just attempts to make sense of the emotions. Naturally, my “interpreter” is going to come up with something that makes me look good within my personal frame of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] and my verbalizations are just attempts to make sense of the emotions. Naturally, my “interpreter” is going to come up with something that makes me look good within my personal frame of [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Who is Laughing at Whom? by Needless Suffering and the Illusion of Responsibility &#124; The Short Version</title>
		<link>http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/2008/08/15/who-is-laughing-at-whom/comment-page-1/#comment-434</link>
		<dc:creator>Needless Suffering and the Illusion of Responsibility &#124; The Short Version</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 04:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rentine.com/theshortversion/?p=257#comment-434</guid>
		<description>[...] I have to pretend to take them seriously in order to keep the social machinery operating smoothly, and at the same time, I have to pretend to take myself seriously. If I were to start laughing at myself the way I do when I’m alone, they would want to know what’s funny, especially if we’re in a hospital room where someone may be dying. (More about laughter: “Who Is Laughing at Whom?”) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I have to pretend to take them seriously in order to keep the social machinery operating smoothly, and at the same time, I have to pretend to take myself seriously. If I were to start laughing at myself the way I do when I’m alone, they would want to know what’s funny, especially if we’re in a hospital room where someone may be dying. (More about laughter: “Who Is Laughing at Whom?”) [...]</p>
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